1 00:00:21,870 --> 00:00:09,090 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:28,179 --> 00:00:24,370 hello and welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:31,659 --> 00:00:28,189 episode number 387 for the twentieth of 4 00:00:34,509 --> 00:00:31,669 March 2016 Richard Saunders here with 5 00:00:36,369 --> 00:00:34,519 you from Sydney Australia it rained yes 6 00:00:39,670 --> 00:00:36,379 well it's been raining for a few days on 7 00:00:42,369 --> 00:00:39,680 and off and today the weather was 8 00:00:44,530 --> 00:00:42,379 actually nice and pleasant what a change 9 00:00:46,270 --> 00:00:44,540 now i know people listening around the 10 00:00:50,110 --> 00:00:46,280 world only tune in to the skeptic zone 11 00:00:52,539 --> 00:00:50,120 to hear the sydney forecaster mmm but it 12 00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:52,549 certainly makes a pleasant change to 13 00:00:58,149 --> 00:00:54,710 have the weather cool a little bit 14 00:01:02,829 --> 00:00:58,159 cooler it's a it's quite nice I hope it 15 00:01:04,630 --> 00:01:02,839 lasts until next summer well at least 16 00:01:06,550 --> 00:01:04,640 for a few more days so I can enjoy this 17 00:01:09,130 --> 00:01:06,560 cool change yes that would be very nice 18 00:01:10,450 --> 00:01:09,140 now for those of you who don't tune into 19 00:01:12,609 --> 00:01:10,460 the skeptic zone to hear the Sydney 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:12,619 weather forecast what's coming up this 21 00:01:18,730 --> 00:01:16,130 week we're going to start with a quick 22 00:01:22,510 --> 00:01:18,740 update a little update nova story we 23 00:01:24,550 --> 00:01:22,520 brought you some time ago about a PhD 24 00:01:26,399 --> 00:01:24,560 awarded by the University of Wollongong 25 00:01:29,410 --> 00:01:26,409 for a thesis which was broadly speaking 26 00:01:31,149 --> 00:01:29,420 anti-vaccination now there are a lot of 27 00:01:34,090 --> 00:01:31,159 things happening behind the scenes with 28 00:01:37,719 --> 00:01:34,100 this story but a small update at the 29 00:01:41,380 --> 00:01:37,729 beginning of the show with a vote of 30 00:01:44,399 --> 00:01:41,390 thanks to the reasonable Hank blog and 31 00:01:47,830 --> 00:01:44,409 reasonable Hank com for the information 32 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:47,840 our reasonable Hank the anti-vaxxers 33 00:01:51,010 --> 00:01:49,250 seemed to think he's all sorts of people 34 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:51,020 it reminds me of that scene at the end 35 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:54,290 of a movie Spartacus and I all stand up 36 00:01:58,750 --> 00:01:57,170 and say I am Spartacus was about a 37 00:02:01,420 --> 00:01:58,760 hundred people standing up at the moment 38 00:02:02,969 --> 00:02:01,430 saying I am reasonable Hank all 39 00:02:06,700 --> 00:02:02,979 according to the only vaxors anyway 40 00:02:10,270 --> 00:02:06,710 after that we have a little review a 41 00:02:12,039 --> 00:02:10,280 little look at the current issue of the 42 00:02:13,479 --> 00:02:12,049 skeptic magazine the journal from 43 00:02:15,850 --> 00:02:13,489 Australian skeptics which we mentioned 44 00:02:18,190 --> 00:02:15,860 from time to time on the skeptic zone I 45 00:02:20,949 --> 00:02:18,200 am a member of Australian skeptics of 46 00:02:23,500 --> 00:02:20,959 course and I do write articles for the 47 00:02:25,509 --> 00:02:23,510 magazine so I thought I'd just outlet 48 00:02:28,420 --> 00:02:25,519 you know what's in the current issue if 49 00:02:30,220 --> 00:02:28,430 you care to subscribe entirely up to you 50 00:02:32,860 --> 00:02:30,230 but I think it's a good magazine 51 00:02:33,910 --> 00:02:32,870 regardless and then after that we get to 52 00:02:35,380 --> 00:02:33,920 the the feature 53 00:02:38,260 --> 00:02:35,390 item in this week's episode of the 54 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:38,270 skeptic zone all about chiropractic now 55 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:39,890 you might remember last week we read a 56 00:02:46,210 --> 00:02:42,970 piece on the show about chiropractors 57 00:02:49,270 --> 00:02:46,220 having to or being asked or being forced 58 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:49,280 to Don whatever it is really are to toe 59 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:51,010 the line to stop making outrageous 60 00:02:56,559 --> 00:02:55,010 claims this week's report is is all 61 00:02:59,740 --> 00:02:56,569 about outrageous claims actually 62 00:03:05,320 --> 00:02:59,750 focusing on the God extend form of 63 00:03:08,309 --> 00:03:05,330 Chiropractic and a very disturbing clip 64 00:03:12,039 --> 00:03:08,319 and audio clip from a video where a baby 65 00:03:14,620 --> 00:03:12,049 gets its back manipulated but we'll get 66 00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:14,630 to that later on in that report and i'll 67 00:03:19,500 --> 00:03:16,430 also be reading a piece from the 68 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:19,510 Australian skeptics website about GP 69 00:03:24,640 --> 00:03:22,970 training versus chiropractic training 70 00:03:26,710 --> 00:03:24,650 now I have an interesting history with 71 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:26,720 chiropractic myself and maybe some of 72 00:03:37,150 --> 00:03:31,930 you can relate to this when I was I'm 73 00:03:39,130 --> 00:03:37,160 imagine about eleven ten turning 11 74 00:03:42,030 --> 00:03:39,140 something about that its all lost sin 75 00:03:45,729 --> 00:03:42,040 that in the midst of time a little bit I 76 00:03:51,490 --> 00:03:45,739 was the subject of a beating in the 77 00:03:53,650 --> 00:03:51,500 schoolyard where a classmate who again 78 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:53,660 that sort of lost in the mists of time I 79 00:04:01,840 --> 00:03:57,650 can't remember exactly who it was ran up 80 00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:01,850 behind me jumped on me from behind as it 81 00:04:09,910 --> 00:04:04,510 were forcing me to the ground boom 82 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:09,920 luckily it was on the grass i sat on my 83 00:04:16,270 --> 00:04:13,010 back in some sort of fashion grabbed my 84 00:04:20,469 --> 00:04:16,280 hair pulled my head up and beat me on 85 00:04:23,020 --> 00:04:20,479 the face yes it was a horrible 86 00:04:26,310 --> 00:04:23,030 experience especially for a living year 87 00:04:29,830 --> 00:04:26,320 old kid the immediate result was 88 00:04:32,650 --> 00:04:29,840 bruising to the face black eyes that 89 00:04:35,650 --> 00:04:32,660 sort of thing but what I didn't know at 90 00:04:37,870 --> 00:04:35,660 the time was the long-term result was 91 00:04:39,529 --> 00:04:37,880 whiplash when he grabbed my hair and 92 00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:39,539 jerked my head back I 93 00:04:46,370 --> 00:04:42,910 receive some injury to the vertebrae in 94 00:04:49,110 --> 00:04:46,380 my neck over the next month's this 95 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:49,120 turned out to be a very agonizing 96 00:04:57,150 --> 00:04:52,810 problem for me with a noticeable love 97 00:05:02,610 --> 00:04:57,160 which I can still feel to this very day 98 00:05:07,710 --> 00:05:02,620 some 40 years later on the back of my 99 00:05:11,249 --> 00:05:07,720 neck and it led to awful pain and again 100 00:05:13,740 --> 00:05:11,259 you put yourself in the context of a 11 101 00:05:16,170 --> 00:05:13,750 year old who is waking up with 102 00:05:18,740 --> 00:05:16,180 indescribable pain and confusion and not 103 00:05:25,890 --> 00:05:18,750 sure what's going on and that in turn 104 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:25,900 led to migraines very unpleasant now you 105 00:05:30,300 --> 00:05:28,570 know these things happen kids get beaten 106 00:05:33,510 --> 00:05:30,310 up in the schoolyard and I'm sure if the 107 00:05:36,060 --> 00:05:33,520 kid who did this to me would have known 108 00:05:37,620 --> 00:05:36,070 long-term consequences it might have 109 00:05:40,350 --> 00:05:37,630 been a different story let's not worry 110 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:40,360 about that the point is that I had 111 00:05:45,300 --> 00:05:43,330 terrible pain and migraines resulting 112 00:05:50,790 --> 00:05:45,310 from this neck injury which was an 113 00:05:53,189 --> 00:05:50,800 undiagnosed whiplash so again relying on 114 00:05:55,409 --> 00:05:53,199 my memory I guess within the year or 115 00:05:58,980 --> 00:05:55,419 maybe a year or two later it's hard to 116 00:06:01,709 --> 00:05:58,990 remember i was going to doctor to the GP 117 00:06:03,270 --> 00:06:01,719 to see about this neck problem and the 118 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:03,280 best he did at the time was giving me 119 00:06:09,779 --> 00:06:07,330 pain killers so the underlying problem 120 00:06:11,670 --> 00:06:09,789 wasn't really addressed at the time my 121 00:06:13,830 --> 00:06:11,680 dad at the time also happened to be 122 00:06:16,529 --> 00:06:13,840 suffering from back issues and was 123 00:06:19,770 --> 00:06:16,539 seeing a chiropractor he took me along 124 00:06:21,330 --> 00:06:19,780 and I remember many times going to the 125 00:06:23,999 --> 00:06:21,340 chiropractor and lying down on the table 126 00:06:27,709 --> 00:06:24,009 the chiropractor cradling my head as 127 00:06:30,810 --> 00:06:27,719 they do and with a sudden jerking motion 128 00:06:34,589 --> 00:06:30,820 went my neck and I found I had a bit 129 00:06:37,110 --> 00:06:34,599 more movement and yes that happened 130 00:06:39,149 --> 00:06:37,120 numerous times but I seem to remember 131 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:39,159 they were short-term relief or at least 132 00:06:44,730 --> 00:06:42,490 I could sense i had more movement in my 133 00:06:47,550 --> 00:06:44,740 neck unfortunately the migraines 134 00:06:51,209 --> 00:06:47,560 persisted and it wasn't until i was 135 00:06:52,530 --> 00:06:51,219 really in my late 20s or 30s that they 136 00:06:56,370 --> 00:06:52,540 became very 137 00:07:00,530 --> 00:06:56,380 rare and now I I hardly ever get them 138 00:07:05,070 --> 00:07:00,540 all which is very nice but for a kid 139 00:07:09,270 --> 00:07:05,080 growing up 11 12 13 14 15 having regular 140 00:07:11,670 --> 00:07:09,280 migraines was unpleasant to say the 141 00:07:14,070 --> 00:07:11,680 least and those of you out there who get 142 00:07:16,220 --> 00:07:14,080 migraines know what I'm talking about 143 00:07:18,630 --> 00:07:16,230 and those who have never had a migraine 144 00:07:21,300 --> 00:07:18,640 well it's just one of those things that 145 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:21,310 you can't adequately describe well this 146 00:07:26,940 --> 00:07:23,410 is a long-winded way long sort of story 147 00:07:29,460 --> 00:07:26,950 to put it to you that at the time when i 148 00:07:34,530 --> 00:07:29,470 went to see chiropractors and i did so 149 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:34,540 into my 20s I had no thought that they 150 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:38,110 weren't legitimate if you follow my 151 00:07:47,510 --> 00:07:43,090 meaning I simply assumed they were a 152 00:07:52,020 --> 00:07:47,520 special field of medicine doctors with a 153 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:52,030 who specialize in something in this case 154 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:55,090 back problems and nerve problems I mean 155 00:07:59,520 --> 00:07:56,290 when you're a little kid and your dad 156 00:08:01,950 --> 00:07:59,530 takes you to a clinic and there's a guy 157 00:08:03,930 --> 00:08:01,960 who is just like a doctor in all other 158 00:08:07,230 --> 00:08:03,940 respects with the white coat et cetera 159 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:07,240 in a consulting room treats you that's 160 00:08:10,890 --> 00:08:08,650 exactly what you think and I had no 161 00:08:13,230 --> 00:08:10,900 reason to believe otherwise so this is 162 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:13,240 why it comes as something of a shock or 163 00:08:18,330 --> 00:08:16,330 surprise or people have amused when they 164 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:18,340 discover there are people who are 165 00:08:25,170 --> 00:08:21,730 skeptical of the claims of chiropractic 166 00:08:27,570 --> 00:08:25,180 and it's a classic example of you'll get 167 00:08:29,580 --> 00:08:27,580 people who go to chiropractors and will 168 00:08:31,170 --> 00:08:29,590 swear by them black and blue that they 169 00:08:33,089 --> 00:08:31,180 absolutely work and they're fine and the 170 00:08:36,980 --> 00:08:33,099 Internet I've just had a look on youtube 171 00:08:38,850 --> 00:08:36,990 is full of people with glowing 172 00:08:41,420 --> 00:08:38,860 testimonials and endorsements and in 173 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:41,430 fact I even ran a search for 174 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:45,010 chiropractic and skeptic just those two 175 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:47,530 words on YouTube and its case after case 176 00:08:54,030 --> 00:08:51,430 of videos titled was skeptical of 177 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:54,040 chiropractic or skeptic converted with 178 00:08:59,880 --> 00:08:56,770 chiropractic and so on and so forth but 179 00:09:01,290 --> 00:08:59,890 as we remember that testimonials aren't 180 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:01,300 worth the paper they're not written on 181 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:03,930 and testimonials are not evidence etc 182 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:06,370 keep all that in mind a bit late 183 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:07,810 in the show when you're hearing the 184 00:09:16,620 --> 00:09:12,250 report on on chiropractic that for many 185 00:09:19,829 --> 00:09:16,630 people it's just it's not exactly beyond 186 00:09:20,700 --> 00:09:19,839 question the question doesn't come into 187 00:09:22,470 --> 00:09:20,710 their heads that they should be 188 00:09:27,180 --> 00:09:22,480 skeptical of chiropractic or so just 189 00:09:31,140 --> 00:09:27,190 accept it as a normal medical speciality 190 00:09:35,130 --> 00:09:31,150 true well after that tale of woe from my 191 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:35,140 arch from my childhood it's all right 192 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:38,010 now I hardly get any migraines I promise 193 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:41,110 which is a great relief anyway I'm going 194 00:09:43,950 --> 00:09:42,610 to run downstairs and I'm going to have 195 00:09:45,390 --> 00:09:43,960 a bit of chocolate cuz it's nearly 196 00:09:47,550 --> 00:09:45,400 Easter time and I don't care what 197 00:09:49,050 --> 00:09:47,560 anybody says I do enjoy chocolate at 198 00:09:50,780 --> 00:09:49,060 east or any time of the year I like 199 00:09:53,519 --> 00:09:50,790 white chocolate dark chocolate in 200 00:09:55,079 --> 00:09:53,529 between chocolate or more bit of both or 201 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:55,089 whatever it is I think I have some in 202 00:09:59,610 --> 00:09:57,250 the fridge i'm going to run down run 203 00:10:01,769 --> 00:09:59,620 downstairs open up the fridge find that 204 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:01,779 chocolate and while i'm munching that i 205 00:10:29,230 --> 00:10:27,070 here's a slight update to a story we 206 00:10:33,430 --> 00:10:29,240 brought you some weeks or wasn't even 207 00:10:37,270 --> 00:10:33,440 months ago where Julie why Lehman now 208 00:10:39,250 --> 00:10:37,280 dr. Julie why Lehman PhD received her 209 00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:39,260 PhD from the University of Wollongong 210 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:42,640 for a thesis that has been broadly 211 00:10:49,060 --> 00:10:46,850 called an anti-vaccination piece this 212 00:10:51,970 --> 00:10:49,070 led to many articles across the media 213 00:10:54,100 --> 00:10:51,980 condemning the situation the awarding of 214 00:10:56,700 --> 00:10:54,110 this PhD and it's a continuing story 215 00:11:00,040 --> 00:10:56,710 doctor while even now has a online 216 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:00,050 newsletter and I quote from newsletter 217 00:11:05,740 --> 00:11:02,930 100 Australian politicians presenting 218 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:05,750 myths about vaccination we're towards 219 00:11:10,900 --> 00:11:08,690 the end of the newsletter it says in 220 00:11:13,690 --> 00:11:10,910 Australia the whooping cough vaccine is 221 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:13,700 promoted on anecdotal evidence parents 222 00:11:17,790 --> 00:11:15,290 promoting the death of their child to 223 00:11:20,380 --> 00:11:17,800 whooping cough and lobby groups such as 224 00:11:22,450 --> 00:11:20,390 Australian skeptics who have many 225 00:11:25,330 --> 00:11:22,460 supporters in the stop the Australian 226 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:25,340 vaccination Network Facebook page have 227 00:11:30,460 --> 00:11:28,490 provided awards to these parents for 228 00:11:32,410 --> 00:11:30,470 their efforts Australian parents are not 229 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:32,420 promoting vaccines for awards or 230 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:35,090 financial gain but it is important for 231 00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:37,130 the community to know that they receive 232 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:39,680 financial rewards from probe vaccine 233 00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:42,650 lobby groups for their efforts public 234 00:11:46,690 --> 00:11:44,510 health policy is not designed on 235 00:11:48,610 --> 00:11:46,700 anecdotal evidence Australian should 236 00:11:51,070 --> 00:11:48,620 also know that medical practitioners 237 00:11:52,750 --> 00:11:51,080 receive thousands of dollars in grants 238 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:52,760 from pharmaceutical companies to 239 00:11:56,650 --> 00:11:54,890 increase the vaccination rates of their 240 00:11:59,290 --> 00:11:56,660 practices please consider these 241 00:12:01,270 --> 00:11:59,300 conflicts of interest in the public 242 00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:01,280 health policy and consider all the 243 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:03,440 medical literature or the absence of 244 00:12:09,910 --> 00:12:06,290 evidence when you decide to vaccinate 245 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:09,920 yourself or your child dr. Julie why 246 00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:14,930 Lehman www vaccination decisions net now 247 00:12:20,020 --> 00:12:17,510 these financial rewards that dr. volumen 248 00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:20,030 talks about with regard to the 249 00:12:24,370 --> 00:12:22,160 Australian skeptics is that we awarded 250 00:12:27,490 --> 00:12:24,380 the Australian skeptics that is awarded 251 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:27,500 the parents of baby Riley who died from 252 00:12:35,140 --> 00:12:31,370 whooping cough the Fred fournette award 253 00:12:37,090 --> 00:12:35,150 which we do most years for people who 254 00:12:39,460 --> 00:12:37,100 are in the general community promote 255 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:39,470 science and good reason the parents of 256 00:12:45,850 --> 00:12:42,770 baby Riley donated the money associated 257 00:12:48,970 --> 00:12:45,860 with the Fred proponent prize to charity 258 00:13:07,449 --> 00:12:48,980 more on this continuing story as it 259 00:13:12,749 --> 00:13:10,809 hi this is Heidi Robertson from the 260 00:13:15,629 --> 00:13:12,759 Northern Rivers vaccination supporters 261 00:13:18,220 --> 00:13:15,639 we are a group of concerned citizens 262 00:13:20,829 --> 00:13:18,230 dedicated to promoting good science and 263 00:13:23,859 --> 00:13:20,839 common sense in our region the far north 264 00:13:25,660 --> 00:13:23,869 coast of New South Wales this area are 265 00:13:28,689 --> 00:13:25,670 famous for its natural beauty and 266 00:13:32,290 --> 00:13:28,699 relaxed lifestyle also has the lowest 267 00:13:34,389 --> 00:13:32,300 rates of vaccination in Australia we are 268 00:13:36,819 --> 00:13:34,399 out to change that by challenging the 269 00:13:38,290 --> 00:13:36,829 myths and misinformation and by 270 00:13:41,769 --> 00:13:38,300 providing good evidence-based 271 00:13:43,660 --> 00:13:41,779 information to the community we'd love 272 00:13:47,290 --> 00:13:43,670 for you no matter where you are in the 273 00:13:54,879 --> 00:13:47,300 world to join our fight please visit our 274 00:13:57,699 --> 00:13:54,889 webpage at ww nrvs info we also have a 275 00:14:02,019 --> 00:13:57,709 link there to our Facebook page tweet us 276 00:14:04,629 --> 00:14:02,029 at in our vax supporters that's vix and 277 00:14:07,269 --> 00:14:04,639 check us out on Wikipedia by searching 278 00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:07,279 for Northern Rivers vaccination 279 00:14:30,210 --> 00:14:27,740 now you often hear me talking about 280 00:14:32,250 --> 00:14:30,220 items and articles and bits and pieces 281 00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:32,260 from the Australian skeptics I am in the 282 00:14:37,020 --> 00:14:33,760 Australian skeptics so that's no 283 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:37,030 surprise and you'll often hear on the 284 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:39,010 skeptic zone talk of the skeptic 285 00:14:44,610 --> 00:14:42,310 magazine the Journal of Australian 286 00:14:49,530 --> 00:14:44,620 skeptics which has been in publication 287 00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:49,540 now for 36 years I have here in my hands 288 00:14:55,710 --> 00:14:52,720 the latest issue of the skeptic water 289 00:14:59,480 --> 00:14:55,720 dramatic covered has it's a sort of an 290 00:15:04,140 --> 00:14:59,490 ancient Egyptian sphinx type mummy type 291 00:15:05,790 --> 00:15:04,150 sarcophagus picture to do with one of 292 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:05,800 the stories in the magazine Dark Ages 293 00:15:11,490 --> 00:15:08,290 and Pharaohs but there's much more in 294 00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:11,500 this current issue which is volume 36 295 00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:14,320 number 14 March 2016 some of the reports 296 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:18,070 covered in this issue are the ABC TV 297 00:15:26,370 --> 00:15:20,970 catalyst program and their wife ride 298 00:15:28,410 --> 00:15:26,380 Fiasco the awarding of a PhD for 299 00:15:31,170 --> 00:15:28,420 anti-vaccination by the University of 300 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:31,180 Wollongong more from ancient history Oh 301 00:15:36,570 --> 00:15:34,090 an article by longtime skeptic and 302 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:36,580 former editor of the skeptic magazine 303 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:39,490 Barry Williams we have articles by steve 304 00:15:45,210 --> 00:15:42,010 roberts about planets and outer space 305 00:15:46,590 --> 00:15:45,220 the article by me and dr. chrissy wilson 306 00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:46,600 which you can download for free at 307 00:15:52,250 --> 00:15:49,150 skeptics calm today you the medium 308 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:52,260 neither read nor well done where we 309 00:15:59,820 --> 00:15:55,690 analyze the cold reading or the reading 310 00:16:02,580 --> 00:15:59,830 maybe i should say of psychic lisa 311 00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:02,590 williams an article by our very own joe 312 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:08,110 alabasta about black salv and so much 313 00:16:14,250 --> 00:16:10,930 more it's a worthwhile magazine you can 314 00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:14,260 subscribe and have it posted to you you 315 00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:16,630 can read it in the buff or on the train 316 00:16:20,970 --> 00:16:18,790 or whatever the case may be or as many 317 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:20,980 people are doing for half the price you 318 00:16:28,110 --> 00:16:24,130 can have it delivered to your inbox as a 319 00:16:31,170 --> 00:16:28,120 PDF and will I enjoy getting the paper 320 00:16:31,820 --> 00:16:31,180 copy myself but i also have a copy on my 321 00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:31,830 ipad 322 00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:36,000 or for ease of reading that's the 323 00:16:40,910 --> 00:16:38,190 skeptic magazine you can subscribe at 324 00:16:43,430 --> 00:16:40,920 skeptics calm today you and just 325 00:16:45,980 --> 00:16:43,440 noticing in the skeptic magazine there's 326 00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:45,990 a little blurb there for the upcoming 327 00:16:50,810 --> 00:16:48,240 Australian skeptics national convention 328 00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:50,820 the 32nd national convention now this 329 00:16:54,820 --> 00:16:52,560 will be in Melbourne wonderful melbourne 330 00:16:58,280 --> 00:16:54,830 on the twenty-fifth to the 27th of 331 00:17:01,880 --> 00:16:58,290 november 2016 although the tickets won't 332 00:17:03,950 --> 00:17:01,890 go on sale until june it's worth putting 333 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:03,960 those dates aside in your calendar 334 00:17:11,630 --> 00:17:08,250 already slated to appear our lawrence 335 00:17:13,370 --> 00:17:11,640 krauss and ed's at ernst it's a lot of 336 00:17:15,620 --> 00:17:13,380 fun i really enjoy the australian 337 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:15,630 skeptics conventions one of the thing i 338 00:17:20,570 --> 00:17:17,250 love about them is the awarding of the 339 00:17:24,430 --> 00:17:20,580 bent spoon award so there you are the 340 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:24,440 latest issue of the skeptic magazine as 341 00:17:51,810 --> 00:17:28,410 compiled and edited by our very own Tim 342 00:17:57,790 --> 00:17:54,850 hello Richard and all the listeners of 343 00:18:00,730 --> 00:17:57,800 skeptic zone my name is Ron levy and I'm 344 00:18:02,620 --> 00:18:00,740 the producer and co-host of curious mind 345 00:18:09,550 --> 00:18:02,630 it's a podcast about science technology 346 00:18:11,770 --> 00:18:09,560 and history at wwc em-pod cmp OD dot net 347 00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:11,780 each episode will bring you interesting 348 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:14,000 stories from a wide range of subjects 349 00:18:19,510 --> 00:18:17,090 from physics astronomy and medicine from 350 00:18:21,340 --> 00:18:19,520 arts to science fiction we strive for 351 00:18:23,740 --> 00:18:21,350 the highest production values both in 352 00:18:26,470 --> 00:18:23,750 content and in delivery we already have 353 00:18:28,990 --> 00:18:26,480 on the air episodes about German u-boats 354 00:18:32,050 --> 00:18:29,000 in Second World War about the history of 355 00:18:35,250 --> 00:18:32,060 x-rays and the war of currents between 356 00:18:55,879 --> 00:18:35,260 Tesla and Edison come and have a listen 357 00:19:01,470 --> 00:18:59,009 on last week's skeptic zone I read a 358 00:19:04,489 --> 00:19:01,480 piece by Kidd momentum the editor of the 359 00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:04,499 skeptic magazine here in Australia about 360 00:19:11,190 --> 00:19:07,840 chiropractors and their requirements to 361 00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:11,200 toe the line as it were to operate under 362 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:13,360 the guidelines of the various 363 00:19:17,580 --> 00:19:15,610 chiropractic boards now in a few moments 364 00:19:20,759 --> 00:19:17,590 i'll be reading another piece by tim 365 00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:20,769 mendham about chiropractic versus GP 366 00:19:25,710 --> 00:19:23,440 when it comes to their training how much 367 00:19:27,930 --> 00:19:25,720 training does a GP receive compared to 368 00:19:30,419 --> 00:19:27,940 how much training a chiropractor 369 00:19:33,229 --> 00:19:30,429 receives also in a moment I'll be 370 00:19:35,940 --> 00:19:33,239 playing some clips I've found on YouTube 371 00:19:39,210 --> 00:19:35,950 with some various claims made by 372 00:19:43,769 --> 00:19:39,220 chiropractors and even the sound of a 373 00:19:45,539 --> 00:19:43,779 baby's spine being manipulated more of 374 00:19:47,279 --> 00:19:45,549 that in a moment but for a sort of an 375 00:19:50,899 --> 00:19:47,289 overview of chiropractic I thought I 376 00:19:55,049 --> 00:19:50,909 would read from the course guide notes 377 00:19:57,479 --> 00:19:55,059 from dr. Harriet Hall regular skeptic 378 00:19:59,899 --> 00:19:57,489 zone listeners will know that I play 379 00:20:02,669 --> 00:19:59,909 promotional clips for dr. Harriet halls 380 00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:02,679 series on science-based medicine and 381 00:20:07,489 --> 00:20:05,230 various alternative medicine modalities 382 00:20:11,159 --> 00:20:07,499 it's an excellent video series and 383 00:20:14,220 --> 00:20:11,169 indeed we interviewed dr. all about this 384 00:20:17,639 --> 00:20:14,230 series on episode 372 which was 385 00:20:20,599 --> 00:20:17,649 broadcast podcast on the 6th December 386 00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:20,609 2015 worth going into the archives and 387 00:20:25,919 --> 00:20:23,200 revisiting that interview so from the 388 00:20:29,129 --> 00:20:25,929 course guide notes for the segment on 389 00:20:31,379 --> 00:20:29,139 chiropractic we read false claims these 390 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:31,389 are false claims made by chiropractic 391 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:34,450 chiropractic is a science chiropractic 392 00:20:40,349 --> 00:20:36,850 is based on neurology anatomy and 393 00:20:43,769 --> 00:20:40,359 physiology chiropractors and doctors of 394 00:20:48,169 --> 00:20:43,779 the nervous system chiropractic improves 395 00:20:51,599 --> 00:20:48,179 health and quality of life in reality 396 00:20:56,669 --> 00:20:51,609 invented by a grocer all by himself in a 397 00:20:59,340 --> 00:20:56,679 single day September the 18th 1895 DD 398 00:21:02,759 --> 00:20:59,350 parmer believed all illness was caused 399 00:21:05,599 --> 00:21:02,769 by bones out of place he extrapolated 400 00:21:08,790 --> 00:21:05,609 from a single case based on a 401 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:08,800 misunderstanding of anatomy base 402 00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:11,490 on false theory the mythical 403 00:21:18,420 --> 00:21:15,190 chiropractic subluxation impairment of 404 00:21:21,570 --> 00:21:18,430 nerve flow interference with a mystical 405 00:21:23,390 --> 00:21:21,580 vital istic power in eight that 406 00:21:27,110 --> 00:21:23,400 maintains health chiropractic 407 00:21:30,930 --> 00:21:27,120 manipulation can have adverse effects 408 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:30,940 strokes from back manipulation broken 409 00:21:37,770 --> 00:21:34,050 bones hemorrhage herniated discs 410 00:21:40,670 --> 00:21:37,780 paralysis death half of all patients 411 00:21:44,220 --> 00:21:40,680 have mild to moderate side effects often 412 00:21:46,890 --> 00:21:44,230 associated with quackery bogus tests 413 00:21:49,290 --> 00:21:46,900 used by some chiropractors biological 414 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:49,300 terrain assessment computerized 415 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:52,930 nutrition deficiency testing contact 416 00:22:00,800 --> 00:21:56,730 reflex analysis electrodermal screening 417 00:22:04,380 --> 00:22:00,810 functional intercellular analysis FIA 418 00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:04,390 hair analysis herbal crystallization 419 00:22:12,060 --> 00:22:09,280 analysis iridology leg length testing to 420 00:22:14,850 --> 00:22:12,070 check for subluxation 'he's live blood 421 00:22:17,820 --> 00:22:14,860 analysis also called nutritional blood 422 00:22:23,150 --> 00:22:17,830 analysis or humor view testing with a 423 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:23,160 nervous cope nutri balanced new try spec 424 00:22:30,690 --> 00:22:27,250 pendulum divination reflexology saliva 425 00:22:33,150 --> 00:22:30,700 testing spinal ultrasound testing to a 426 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:33,160 measure progress surface 427 00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:36,910 electromyography sem g thermography 428 00:22:43,020 --> 00:22:39,910 testing with a toughness device weighing 429 00:22:45,780 --> 00:22:43,030 on a twin scale device spinal analysis 430 00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:45,790 machine forty-three percent of american 431 00:22:52,830 --> 00:22:49,360 chiropractors used applied kinesiology a 432 00:22:56,010 --> 00:22:52,840 bogus muscle testing procedure for both 433 00:22:59,300 --> 00:22:56,020 testing and treatment bogus treatments 434 00:23:02,750 --> 00:22:59,310 used by many chiropractors acupuncture 435 00:23:06,270 --> 00:23:02,760 activator methods applied kinesiology 436 00:23:10,550 --> 00:23:06,280 bioelectric synchronization technique be 437 00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:10,560 EST chelation therapy colonic irrigation 438 00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:13,840 cranial or cranial scalpel therapy laser 439 00:23:20,010 --> 00:23:16,630 acupuncture magnetic or biomagnetic 440 00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:20,020 therapy neuro emotional technique any T 441 00:23:26,020 --> 00:23:22,370 neuro organization technique 442 00:23:28,830 --> 00:23:26,030 n ot homeopathic products unproven 443 00:23:31,420 --> 00:23:28,840 dietary supplements or herbal products 444 00:23:35,310 --> 00:23:31,430 some chiropractors do bad things 445 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:35,320 including unnecessary x-rays unethical 446 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:38,330 advertising fifty percent discourage 447 00:23:44,980 --> 00:23:41,210 immunization discouraged conventional 448 00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:44,990 medical care of a lifelong maintenance 449 00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:48,320 adjustments miss diagnose or failed to 450 00:23:54,669 --> 00:23:51,200 refer appropriately treat young children 451 00:23:57,810 --> 00:23:54,679 and even newborns who spines haven't 452 00:24:01,140 --> 00:23:57,820 finished forming more on that soon 453 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:01,150 presume to function as family doctors 454 00:24:08,620 --> 00:24:05,210 types of chiropractors strains do 455 00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:08,630 chiropractic adjustments only mixes add 456 00:24:15,010 --> 00:24:11,809 other treatments everything from massage 457 00:24:17,950 --> 00:24:15,020 to a voodoo upper cervical chiropractors 458 00:24:20,890 --> 00:24:17,960 only adjust the top of vertebra of the 459 00:24:23,799 --> 00:24:20,900 neck reform chiropractors who reject the 460 00:24:26,890 --> 00:24:23,809 subluxation concept and try to practice 461 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:26,900 evidence-based chiropractic the only 462 00:24:32,290 --> 00:24:29,330 thing chiropractors do that has been 463 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:32,300 definitely proven effective your spinal 464 00:24:38,049 --> 00:24:35,570 manipulation treatment smt for certain 465 00:24:41,770 --> 00:24:38,059 types of lower back pain there is 466 00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:41,780 nothing uniquely chiropractic about smt 467 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:44,809 it's also used by a physiotherapist and 468 00:24:48,970 --> 00:24:46,970 others it is no more effective in the 469 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:48,980 long run than other treatments for lower 470 00:24:54,190 --> 00:24:51,890 back pain but it is a reasonable option 471 00:24:57,340 --> 00:24:54,200 for people who prefer it and it may 472 00:24:59,650 --> 00:24:57,350 offer earlier relief if you want to see 473 00:25:02,010 --> 00:24:59,660 a chiropractor here's a list of what you 474 00:25:06,940 --> 00:25:02,020 should look for rejects subluxation 475 00:25:09,700 --> 00:25:06,950 theory no full spine xrays no quack 476 00:25:13,090 --> 00:25:09,710 products or tests no preventive or 477 00:25:16,180 --> 00:25:13,100 maintenance adjustments no promotion of 478 00:25:18,580 --> 00:25:16,190 unproven dietary supplements doesn't 479 00:25:22,030 --> 00:25:18,590 pretend to be a family doctor doesn't 480 00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:22,040 treat young children no antagonism to 481 00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:24,910 the scientific method doesn't discourage 482 00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:27,679 immunizations limited to short-term 483 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:30,310 treatment of musculoskeletal problems 484 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:34,890 knows when to refer bottom line if a 485 00:25:39,620 --> 00:25:37,530 chiropractor offers spinal manipulation 486 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:39,630 a treatment for a short-term treatment 487 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:42,450 of certain kinds of musculoskeletal pain 488 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:45,330 he might be able to help you if he 489 00:25:50,690 --> 00:25:48,810 offers to adjust your subluxation or 490 00:25:54,050 --> 00:25:50,700 treat problems elsewhere in the body 491 00:25:56,620 --> 00:25:54,060 it's best to avoid him horror stories 492 00:25:59,990 --> 00:25:56,630 illustrate just how unscientific 493 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:00,000 chiropractic can be chiropractic 494 00:26:05,810 --> 00:26:02,610 research studies are generally poor 495 00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:05,820 usually without controls and often are 496 00:26:10,220 --> 00:26:07,710 simply case reports that are poorly 497 00:26:13,250 --> 00:26:10,230 documented now real progress has been 498 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:13,260 made in over a century the research has 499 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:16,050 never found a treatment ineffective they 500 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:18,330 keep adding treatment methods and never 501 00:26:22,850 --> 00:26:20,610 give up on any of them so that was a 502 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:22,860 quick overview of some of the course 503 00:26:30,490 --> 00:26:26,970 guide notes from the harriet whole video 504 00:26:34,580 --> 00:26:30,500 on chiropractic again you can just visit 505 00:26:37,490 --> 00:26:34,590 skeptic dot info for the link to the 506 00:26:41,210 --> 00:26:37,500 videos which i recommend and the course 507 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:41,220 guide notes now let's hear some of the 508 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:43,010 claims made for chiropractic 509 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:45,570 specifically the branch of chiropractic 510 00:26:55,090 --> 00:26:48,450 called gonstead now this is named after 511 00:26:58,370 --> 00:26:55,100 Clarence gonstead 1898 to 1978 and to 512 00:27:00,820 --> 00:26:58,380 read from the gods dead chiropractic 513 00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:00,830 Society of Australia's website 514 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:03,600 chiropractic began with Daniel D Palmer 515 00:27:10,670 --> 00:27:06,210 giving his first adjustment in September 516 00:27:12,710 --> 00:27:10,680 1895 in Davenport Iowa today there are 517 00:27:14,570 --> 00:27:12,720 many methods used by chiropractors to 518 00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:14,580 correct spinal misalignments joint 519 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:17,310 dysfunction and subluxation complexes 520 00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:19,650 many techniques are identified by the 521 00:27:23,660 --> 00:27:21,030 name of the person who was most 522 00:27:26,270 --> 00:27:23,670 instrumental in their development one of 523 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:26,280 the most advanced and scientific methods 524 00:27:31,580 --> 00:27:29,250 is called the gonstead system dr. 525 00:27:34,270 --> 00:27:31,590 gonstead developed his procedure as a 526 00:27:37,310 --> 00:27:34,280 result of extensive clinical research 527 00:27:39,530 --> 00:27:37,320 these procedures were developed over 528 00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:39,540 many years of clinical observation and 529 00:27:46,010 --> 00:27:41,910 research to work out how to get sick 530 00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:46,020 patients well doctor God stands 55 years 531 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:48,370 of continuous practice and 532 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:50,890 a four-million chiropractic adjustments 533 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:53,250 resulted in the most complete method of 534 00:27:59,240 --> 00:27:56,290 biomechanical analysis available for use 535 00:28:01,830 --> 00:27:59,250 by today's doctors and chiropractors 536 00:28:04,170 --> 00:28:01,840 many of dr. Johnston's clinical 537 00:28:06,420 --> 00:28:04,180 approaches theories and results are now 538 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:06,430 being explained by modern scientific 539 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:09,250 research and studies dr. Johnston was 540 00:28:13,770 --> 00:28:11,170 asked by other chiropractors to teach 541 00:28:15,870 --> 00:28:13,780 them what he did and how he got the 542 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:15,880 results that he did this led to the 543 00:28:21,419 --> 00:28:18,490 development of the gods Ted seminar in 544 00:28:23,730 --> 00:28:21,429 the mid 1940s and a systematic approach 545 00:28:26,850 --> 00:28:23,740 to explaining the way he practiced and 546 00:28:28,799 --> 00:28:26,860 got sick patients well here are some of 547 00:28:33,150 --> 00:28:28,809 the claims being made by chiropractors 548 00:28:36,210 --> 00:28:33,160 today our chiropractic research suggests 549 00:28:39,210 --> 00:28:36,220 and a clinical experience that we may be 550 00:28:41,669 --> 00:28:39,220 able to help your child to breathe 551 00:28:44,250 --> 00:28:41,679 easier with harassment improve their 552 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:44,260 posture and fed alignment to help them 553 00:28:50,490 --> 00:28:46,690 to build stronger immune systems against 554 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:50,500 colds and ear infections and to help 555 00:28:56,100 --> 00:28:52,690 manage any other childhood ailments 556 00:28:58,549 --> 00:28:56,110 including colleague ADHD bedwetting 557 00:29:00,570 --> 00:28:58,559 birth trauma and sporting injuries 558 00:29:03,210 --> 00:29:00,580 asthma is one of the many conditions 559 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:03,220 that we get fantastic results with 560 00:29:07,530 --> 00:29:05,410 through chiropractic care case after 561 00:29:10,250 --> 00:29:07,540 case after case of people that have had 562 00:29:12,570 --> 00:29:10,260 breathing issues that are borderline 563 00:29:15,090 --> 00:29:12,580 bronchitis pneumonia but especially 564 00:29:17,070 --> 00:29:15,100 asthma we've been able to help people 565 00:29:19,410 --> 00:29:17,080 get off of their inhalers and actually 566 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:19,420 take a nice deep breath for the first 567 00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:21,730 time in their lives believe it or not 568 00:29:24,810 --> 00:29:23,200 we've had many patients come here 569 00:29:26,790 --> 00:29:24,820 seeking help with urinary tract 570 00:29:29,070 --> 00:29:26,800 infections and kidney problems we've had 571 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:29,080 many patients that have had borderline 572 00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:31,330 kidney failure that have responded 573 00:29:35,610 --> 00:29:33,910 through chiropractic help now you may 574 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:35,620 ask yourself how can an adjustment in 575 00:29:39,750 --> 00:29:37,210 the back actually affect the kidneys 576 00:29:41,460 --> 00:29:39,760 well it's very simple wherever the brain 577 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:41,470 goes it has to communicate with those 578 00:29:45,630 --> 00:29:43,690 organs through the nervous system quite 579 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:45,640 simply the function of a chiropractor is 580 00:29:50,610 --> 00:29:48,370 route is to remove any interference in 581 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:50,620 the nervous system therefore if you have 582 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:52,570 a blockage of that nerve going to the 583 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:54,970 kidney and that's what's causing that 584 00:29:58,620 --> 00:29:57,010 kidney to shut down doesn't it make 585 00:30:01,380 --> 00:29:58,630 sense that that interference needs to be 586 00:30:02,190 --> 00:30:01,390 removed as a nation we don't get enough 587 00:30:04,260 --> 00:30:02,200 sleep 588 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:04,270 many times this is due to a misalignment 589 00:30:08,910 --> 00:30:06,250 of the pelvis specifically your hips 590 00:30:10,650 --> 00:30:08,920 what we will do is evaluate and see 591 00:30:13,620 --> 00:30:10,660 whether or not your hips are misaligned 592 00:30:15,930 --> 00:30:13,630 when those hips are actually off what it 593 00:30:18,810 --> 00:30:15,940 does is cause muscle imbalance and make 594 00:30:21,270 --> 00:30:18,820 sleeping very uncomfortable parents this 595 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:21,280 one's for you if your children have ear 596 00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,770 infections you must get them checked I 597 00:30:28,830 --> 00:30:25,600 beseech you not to give them antibiotics 598 00:30:30,390 --> 00:30:28,840 and go the natural route if you know of 599 00:30:32,790 --> 00:30:30,400 children who are suffering with chronic 600 00:30:34,890 --> 00:30:32,800 ear infections please bring them in and 601 00:30:36,570 --> 00:30:34,900 have them evaluated let's see if we can 602 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:36,580 help them the natural way the 603 00:30:43,170 --> 00:30:40,450 chiropractic way which brings us to a 604 00:30:46,250 --> 00:30:43,180 very short clip which I discovered at 605 00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:46,260 the youtube channel entitled 606 00:30:51,650 --> 00:30:49,120 chiropractic excellence I'll play the 607 00:30:54,270 --> 00:30:51,660 clip now give you a brief explanation 608 00:30:56,970 --> 00:30:54,280 but it'll look more than that because 609 00:31:00,300 --> 00:30:56,980 she so flexible I'm going to have to get 610 00:31:02,850 --> 00:31:00,310 some extension in as fun I'm going to 611 00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:02,860 take that contact there like that I have 612 00:31:07,430 --> 00:31:04,720 to unfortunately just extend her a 613 00:31:15,870 --> 00:31:07,440 little bit to get it in the right place 614 00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:15,880 that's why we know to set the scene what 615 00:31:20,670 --> 00:31:18,310 you just heard the chiropractor was 616 00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:20,680 sitting on a chair four day old baby 617 00:31:28,260 --> 00:31:25,840 lying across his lap facedown and the 618 00:31:32,820 --> 00:31:28,270 chiropractor pushed his hands into the 619 00:31:34,620 --> 00:31:32,830 baby's spine and cracked the babys back 620 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:34,630 and then you hear the crying let's 621 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:37,690 listen to that again I feel like that I 622 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:40,210 have to unfortunately just extend her a 623 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:42,930 little bit to get it in the right place 624 00:31:55,210 --> 00:31:47,410 that's why we sorry 625 00:31:57,130 --> 00:31:55,220 okay and it looks far worse than it 626 00:31:58,930 --> 00:31:57,140 sounds when you see this little baby's 627 00:32:01,390 --> 00:31:58,940 back being pushed in that really made me 628 00:32:06,580 --> 00:32:01,400 wince and it makes me wince every time I 629 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:06,590 see it but now we'll turn to a item 630 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:08,330 posted on the Australian skeptics 631 00:32:21,310 --> 00:32:17,690 website as published at ww skeptics com 632 00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:21,320 au twenty-second of februari by Tim 633 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:26,750 mendham Cairo vs. GP who's more 634 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:30,170 qualified is it true that GPS and 635 00:32:35,170 --> 00:32:32,570 chiropractors do much of the same level 636 00:32:37,570 --> 00:32:35,180 of training and are thus equally 637 00:32:40,780 --> 00:32:37,580 qualified to practice primary health 638 00:32:44,770 --> 00:32:40,790 care should chiropractors play the role 639 00:32:48,550 --> 00:32:44,780 that GPS currently do as the first stop 640 00:32:50,890 --> 00:32:48,560 for medical consultation the argument 641 00:32:53,890 --> 00:32:50,900 used by chiropractors to practice as 642 00:32:56,170 --> 00:32:53,900 primary health care is that they must go 643 00:32:58,780 --> 00:32:56,180 through the same level of medical 644 00:33:01,750 --> 00:32:58,790 training as GPS including the same 645 00:33:04,540 --> 00:33:01,760 courses and are thus as qualified to 646 00:33:08,020 --> 00:33:04,550 offer primary healthcare as GPS the 647 00:33:10,180 --> 00:33:08,030 question is whether this is true the 648 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:10,190 vision statement of the chiropractic 649 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:13,010 professions peak body the chiropractor's 650 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:16,970 Association of Australia CAA positions 651 00:33:21,850 --> 00:33:19,850 chiropractic as an alternative health 652 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:21,860 care system distinct from the mainstream 653 00:33:28,270 --> 00:33:25,850 and aims to quote achieve a fundamental 654 00:33:31,090 --> 00:33:28,280 paradigm shift in the healthcare 655 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:31,100 direction where chiropractic is 656 00:33:36,450 --> 00:33:34,010 recognized as the most cost efficient 657 00:33:40,180 --> 00:33:36,460 and effective health care regime of 658 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:40,190 first choice and is readily accessible 659 00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:43,610 to all people end quote in an article on 660 00:33:50,020 --> 00:33:46,880 the choice website Karina Bray senior 661 00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:50,030 content producer health for choice laid 662 00:33:55,060 --> 00:33:52,640 out some of the issues associated with 663 00:33:59,350 --> 00:33:55,070 chiropractic and the differences between 664 00:34:00,350 --> 00:33:59,360 it and the GP profession apart from the 665 00:34:02,590 --> 00:34:00,360 level of qualification 666 00:34:05,180 --> 00:34:02,600 patient's these issues included the 667 00:34:07,810 --> 00:34:05,190 anti-vaccination stance of many 668 00:34:10,389 --> 00:34:07,820 chiropractors the potential for 669 00:34:13,149 --> 00:34:10,399 misdiagnosis and preventive 670 00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:13,159 manipulations which may cause problems 671 00:34:21,020 --> 00:34:17,520 where none previously existed the claim 672 00:34:24,619 --> 00:34:21,030 for chiropractic training oz Sid guide 673 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:24,629 35 responded to braise article on the 674 00:34:30,740 --> 00:34:27,810 choice site with a comment that the 675 00:34:32,869 --> 00:34:30,750 article was biased with bray apparently 676 00:34:35,419 --> 00:34:32,879 showing a lack of understanding of what 677 00:34:38,060 --> 00:34:35,429 training chiropractors go through quote 678 00:34:40,399 --> 00:34:38,070 which is a full three-year bachelor's 679 00:34:43,010 --> 00:34:40,409 degree in science followed by a two 680 00:34:45,290 --> 00:34:43,020 years master's degree if anyone does 681 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:45,300 some research instead of taking extreme 682 00:34:50,899 --> 00:34:48,050 biased views they can clearly see 683 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:50,909 chiropractors do take extensive training 684 00:34:57,410 --> 00:34:55,050 and just as much as GPS in the science 685 00:35:01,340 --> 00:34:57,420 side of things the courses are very 686 00:35:03,530 --> 00:35:01,350 similar GPS require and the same as 687 00:35:06,580 --> 00:35:03,540 chiropractors courses in anatomy 688 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:06,590 physiology physics chemistry 689 00:35:12,980 --> 00:35:10,770 biochemistry neural anatomy etc these 690 00:35:15,770 --> 00:35:12,990 courses do not differ they are not 691 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:15,780 taught by anyone different either the 692 00:35:21,530 --> 00:35:18,450 person in question teaching the specific 693 00:35:24,470 --> 00:35:21,540 course has to have a degree in that 694 00:35:26,540 --> 00:35:24,480 specific course for example a bio 695 00:35:29,180 --> 00:35:26,550 chemistry teacher has to have a 696 00:35:31,849 --> 00:35:29,190 bachelor's of biochemistry with honors 697 00:35:35,090 --> 00:35:31,859 etc depending on the University of the 698 00:35:37,609 --> 00:35:35,100 min requirements hence some are better 699 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:37,619 than others just like medicine both 700 00:35:44,180 --> 00:35:40,050 require a minimum though rest assured as 701 00:35:47,330 --> 00:35:44,190 per law chiropractors also learn ECG 702 00:35:49,790 --> 00:35:47,340 monitoring blood pressure etc that's why 703 00:35:51,830 --> 00:35:49,800 they can do this stuff also as you get 704 00:35:55,010 --> 00:35:51,840 taught this in anatomy and physiology 705 00:35:58,310 --> 00:35:55,020 second level the only parts where they 706 00:36:01,370 --> 00:35:58,320 differ is GPS branch off into getting 707 00:36:03,770 --> 00:36:01,380 training for drugs where chiropractors 708 00:36:07,070 --> 00:36:03,780 usually keep going with even more 709 00:36:09,260 --> 00:36:07,080 in-depth anatomy and physiology specific 710 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:09,270 to what they deal with each day even the 711 00:36:13,350 --> 00:36:11,250 years of the same check out the 712 00:36:16,350 --> 00:36:13,360 Australian am a page 713 00:36:19,350 --> 00:36:16,360 takes four to six years chiropractic 714 00:36:22,020 --> 00:36:19,360 takes minimum five the medical does a 715 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:22,030 further one year normally Hospital 716 00:36:26,970 --> 00:36:24,370 residency a chiropractic does this in 717 00:36:30,180 --> 00:36:26,980 addition to its normal studies for two 718 00:36:33,630 --> 00:36:30,190 years in their master's degree both are 719 00:36:36,180 --> 00:36:33,640 classified as doctors one is of medicine 720 00:36:39,090 --> 00:36:36,190 and prescribes drugs the other is a non 721 00:36:41,970 --> 00:36:39,100 drug prescribing profession both have 722 00:36:46,290 --> 00:36:41,980 their needs in society most nurses or 723 00:36:49,140 --> 00:36:46,300 MDS agree with this and quote oz Sid guy 724 00:36:52,050 --> 00:36:49,150 admits that quote more research is 725 00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:52,060 needed in quote but adds quote if people 726 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:53,710 are getting a relief from this and there 727 00:36:59,610 --> 00:36:55,810 is a lack of scientific evidence around 728 00:37:02,250 --> 00:36:59,620 that does not mean it does not work just 729 00:37:05,190 --> 00:37:02,260 means we need more studies to show why 730 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:05,200 it works in people that it does and how 731 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:08,170 end quote there are many chiropractors 732 00:37:16,590 --> 00:37:12,210 who would share oz Sid guys and views 733 00:37:20,070 --> 00:37:16,600 unfortunately it's not true the reality 734 00:37:22,830 --> 00:37:20,080 of medical training mr. John Cunningham 735 00:37:24,930 --> 00:37:22,840 is an Australian trained orthopaedic 736 00:37:27,540 --> 00:37:24,940 surgeon who specializes in the treatment 737 00:37:29,490 --> 00:37:27,550 of spinal disorders he is a fellow of 738 00:37:31,740 --> 00:37:29,500 the Royal Australasian College of 739 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:31,750 Surgeons and of the Australian 740 00:37:37,380 --> 00:37:34,690 orthopaedic association in the 2016 741 00:37:40,980 --> 00:37:37,390 Australia Day honors he was awarded a 742 00:37:43,170 --> 00:37:40,990 medal in the order of australia oam for 743 00:37:46,740 --> 00:37:43,180 services to medicine and to the 744 00:37:49,950 --> 00:37:46,750 promotion of immunization he suggests 745 00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:49,960 that oz Sid guys quote understanding of 746 00:37:55,710 --> 00:37:51,760 the chiropractic training and the 747 00:37:58,320 --> 00:37:55,720 training of GPS is considerably lacking 748 00:38:00,750 --> 00:37:58,330 and quota first start mr. Cunningham 749 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:00,760 says a GP must complete a medical degree 750 00:38:07,710 --> 00:38:04,810 which these days is often a six to seven 751 00:38:10,460 --> 00:38:07,720 year program of medical sciences as well 752 00:38:13,170 --> 00:38:10,470 as clinical medicine it is taught by 753 00:38:16,770 --> 00:38:13,180 scientists specialized in the field as 754 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:16,780 well as clinicians quote medical 755 00:38:21,210 --> 00:38:18,610 practitioners are taught evidence-based 756 00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:21,220 medicine meanwhile chiropractors are 757 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:23,200 taught make-believe like gonstead 758 00:38:27,130 --> 00:38:25,570 pregnancy and pediatric chiropractic 759 00:38:29,650 --> 00:38:27,140 completely without ever 760 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:29,660 medical students are not taught by 761 00:38:34,510 --> 00:38:32,210 chiropractors nor are chiropractors 762 00:38:36,190 --> 00:38:34,520 taught by medical practitioners the 763 00:38:39,250 --> 00:38:36,200 courses differ and they differ 764 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:39,260 enormously how do I know because I did a 765 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:41,530 science degree with chiropractors at 766 00:38:46,570 --> 00:38:44,210 University of New South Wales before 767 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:46,580 completing a medical degree while their 768 00:38:51,790 --> 00:38:49,130 science degree was similar they only did 769 00:38:53,590 --> 00:38:51,800 one major degree in anatomy and so 770 00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:53,600 missed out on physiology and 771 00:38:59,830 --> 00:38:57,650 biochemistry just anatomy they were not 772 00:39:02,380 --> 00:38:59,840 exposed to nearly as much detail as the 773 00:39:04,330 --> 00:39:02,390 other subjects as medical students nor 774 00:39:07,140 --> 00:39:04,340 did they learn anything about human 775 00:39:10,930 --> 00:39:07,150 behavior microbiology or pharmacology 776 00:39:13,930 --> 00:39:10,940 just Anatomy to even suggest that 777 00:39:16,390 --> 00:39:13,940 chiropractors learn ECGs in the same 778 00:39:19,390 --> 00:39:16,400 detail as a medical practitioner is 779 00:39:22,180 --> 00:39:19,400 laughable making a claim that the two 780 00:39:24,580 --> 00:39:22,190 streams simply branch off is ridiculous 781 00:39:28,090 --> 00:39:24,590 they share no common ground to begin 782 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:28,100 with and cannot branch off as aaahs Sid 783 00:39:34,540 --> 00:39:31,010 guy puts it and a medical degree is only 784 00:39:36,670 --> 00:39:34,550 the start GPS must complete a three-year 785 00:39:39,310 --> 00:39:36,680 vocational training pathway covering 786 00:39:42,220 --> 00:39:39,320 many aspects of Medicine not covered in 787 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:42,230 detail in the undergraduate section of 788 00:39:47,770 --> 00:39:45,170 training as well as passing more exams 789 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:47,780 and then a fellowship exam so we're up 790 00:39:54,370 --> 00:39:51,050 to ten years just now and I'll Sid guy 791 00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:54,380 things that were only about drugs what 792 00:39:59,500 --> 00:39:57,680 do g pc only the broadest range of 793 00:40:02,500 --> 00:39:59,510 conditions that can be treated with 794 00:40:05,790 --> 00:40:02,510 evidence-based medicine yes drugs are 795 00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:05,800 used but what about say an asthma plan 796 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:09,400 diabetes counseling family planning 797 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:11,810 psychiatric care end-of-life care 798 00:40:18,460 --> 00:40:15,050 pediatrics learning difficulties moscow 799 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:18,470 skeletal complaints dermatology i could 800 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:21,290 go on but to simplify things to the idea 801 00:40:27,460 --> 00:40:24,770 that quote old GPS do is prescribing 802 00:40:29,290 --> 00:40:27,470 drugs and quote is ludicrous a 803 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:29,300 chiropractor is trained now at 804 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:32,090 universities mr. Cunningham says but 805 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:34,010 quote many aspects of their curriculum 806 00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:36,650 are not evidence-based simple as that 807 00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:40,160 and saying more research is needed 808 00:40:46,029 --> 00:40:43,910 is not the same as saying it works much 809 00:40:47,890 --> 00:40:46,039 research has already been done and the 810 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:47,900 only thing that chiropractors can treat 811 00:40:54,539 --> 00:40:50,930 better than GPS is acute back pain and 812 00:40:56,950 --> 00:40:54,549 only then in a small subset of patients 813 00:40:59,500 --> 00:40:56,960 researching it more may provide more 814 00:41:02,920 --> 00:40:59,510 evidence for other conditions but it 815 00:41:05,470 --> 00:41:02,930 also may not once chickens should not be 816 00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:05,480 counted before they hatched suggesting 817 00:41:09,819 --> 00:41:07,730 that chiropractors can replace GPS 818 00:41:11,829 --> 00:41:09,829 because some of their subjects have the 819 00:41:14,799 --> 00:41:11,839 same broad title as each other is 820 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:14,809 blatantly false you might make the same 821 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:17,690 claim about physiotherapists osteopath 822 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:22,010 nurses pharmacists and I could go on GPS 823 00:41:28,450 --> 00:41:24,650 have their place and that is as the 824 00:41:31,059 --> 00:41:28,460 primary family physician chiropractors 825 00:41:33,069 --> 00:41:31,069 should learn their place too and it's 826 00:41:36,130 --> 00:41:33,079 not where they think it is and quota and 827 00:41:38,410 --> 00:41:36,140 that was Cairo vs. GP who's more 828 00:42:01,730 --> 00:41:38,420 qualified written by Tim mendham 829 00:42:01,740 --> 00:42:08,090 you 830 00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:12,180 dr. Harriet hall md no into thousands as 831 00:42:18,330 --> 00:42:15,250 the skeptic a retired family physician 832 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:18,340 and former Air Force flight surgeon she 833 00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:20,410 writes about medicine so called 834 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:22,110 complementary and alternative medicine 835 00:42:29,070 --> 00:42:26,010 science banchory and critical thinking 836 00:42:31,530 --> 00:42:29,080 Harriet now has a free course a series 837 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:31,540 of ten video lectures on science based 838 00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:34,690 medicine and alternative medicine the 839 00:42:38,820 --> 00:42:36,730 videos and an accompanying course guide 840 00:42:42,780 --> 00:42:38,830 can be found by following the link at 841 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:42,790 skeptic dot info or by visiting web 842 00:42:51,150 --> 00:42:46,810 Randy's org slash educational dash 843 00:42:54,270 --> 00:42:51,160 modules dot HTML topics covered in the 844 00:42:57,380 --> 00:42:54,280 series are science-based medicine vs. 845 00:43:00,800 --> 00:42:57,390 evidence-based medicine what is cam 846 00:43:03,990 --> 00:43:00,810 chiropractic acupuncture homeopathy 847 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:04,000 naturopathy and herbal medicine energy 848 00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:06,130 medicine miscellaneous alternatives 849 00:43:12,590 --> 00:43:09,310 pitfalls in research and science-based 850 00:43:15,330 --> 00:43:12,600 medicine in the media and politics 851 00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:15,340 Harriet covers each topic in a matter of 852 00:43:43,260 --> 00:43:17,920 fact no-nonsense way that sure to 853 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:45,880 thank you for listening to the skeptic 854 00:43:49,470 --> 00:43:47,690 zone coming up on next week's show I 855 00:43:52,420 --> 00:43:49,480 hope we can hear some more from our 856 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:52,430 wonderful reporters Maynard don't forget 857 00:43:56,830 --> 00:43:54,770 to visit Maynard calm today you for his 858 00:44:00,730 --> 00:43:56,840 podcast bunga bunga and lots of other 859 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:00,740 Maynard craziness Joe alabaster who has 860 00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:04,570 a blog at evidence please dot net and 861 00:44:09,730 --> 00:44:07,730 Joe does some wonderful reports for the 862 00:44:11,740 --> 00:44:09,740 skeptic zone I always look forward to 863 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:11,750 evidence please with Joe alabaster and 864 00:44:15,820 --> 00:44:14,210 between you and me I think she's got one 865 00:44:18,850 --> 00:44:15,830 of the best speaking voices in the 866 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:18,860 business in fact if you want a really 867 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:22,250 cool voiceover artist Joe's your woman 868 00:44:29,230 --> 00:44:24,770 Heidi Robinson of course with the raw 869 00:44:32,050 --> 00:44:29,240 skeptic on her website the Northern 870 00:44:35,290 --> 00:44:32,060 Rivers vaccination supporters is at nrvs 871 00:44:39,090 --> 00:44:35,300 dot info also our good friend dr. hu 872 00:44:42,660 --> 00:44:39,100 who's a blog is the skeptics book at 873 00:44:45,130 --> 00:44:42,670 skeptics book.com spelt with the sea 874 00:44:46,780 --> 00:44:45,140 Iran's they gave of course with grain of 875 00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:46,790 salt chips in every now and then and 876 00:44:50,590 --> 00:44:48,710 well I guess you can go to the 877 00:44:53,410 --> 00:44:50,600 Australian skeptics website to find out 878 00:44:54,940 --> 00:44:53,420 more about Iran's again but what was I 879 00:44:57,250 --> 00:44:54,950 saying oh yes well next week I hope we 880 00:45:01,200 --> 00:44:57,260 hear a report from one of our or even 881 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:01,210 more of our wonderful report isn't 882 00:45:06,700 --> 00:45:03,410 thanks to the people who write to our 883 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:06,710 reporters and congratulate them or us 884 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:09,010 for their advice about different things 885 00:45:13,810 --> 00:45:11,330 it's part of the reason they're on the 886 00:45:17,110 --> 00:45:13,820 skeptic zone but for this week with 887 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:17,120 what's that I hear outside yeah rain 888 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:20,570 coming down on the roof once again great 889 00:45:25,060 --> 00:45:22,850 but for this week this is Richard 890 00:45:29,319 --> 00:45:25,070 Saunders signing off from Sydney 891 00:45:35,509 --> 00:45:31,759 you've been listening to the skeptics 892 00:45:38,420 --> 00:45:35,519 own podcast visit our website at wwc a 893 00:45:41,839 --> 00:45:38,430 petting zoo TV for contacts an archive 894 00:45:44,569 --> 00:45:41,849 of all episodes since 2008 and our 895 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:44,579 online store please support the skeptic 896 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:46,490 zone by following us on twitter at 897 00:45:53,269 --> 00:45:49,650 skeptic zone liking us on facebook and 898 00:45:55,460 --> 00:45:53,279 leaving a review on iTunes you can also 899 00:45:58,630 --> 00:45:55,470 show your support by subscribing via 900 00:46:01,400 --> 00:45:58,640 paypal for as little as 99 cents a week 901 00:46:03,019 --> 00:46:01,410 the skeptic zone is an independent 902 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:03,029 production the views and opinions 903 00:46:07,519 --> 00:46:05,490 expressed on the skeptic zone and not